update, 03.30.2013. at this point i consider the magazine from p.r.i. as "reliable," in that it feed regularly and has not been the source of jams as i have continued to break it in. that's the good news. the bad news is that i have had two more of them on "back order," and expect never to see another one, any time soon.
i do not consider the nodak spud as reliable, and i am having doubts that it ever will be. i believe i've solved the problems at top of the magazine/feed lips, as outlined in the post below, but i have not been able to solve the issue of magazine follower "tilt." that means that every now and again a cartridge from the more or less middle of the stack presents at the top of the stack, "nose down." so, that when the bolt comes forward to strip the cartridge from the magazine, all that happens is that the cartridge nose impacts the front of the magazine. oops.
we'll see what happens, but it is hard to get the spud to feed an entire magazine without mishap. end update.
when i first conceived the "jj's brit" in an ar-15 rifle i realized that getting it to feed reliably was going to be as great a difficulty as finding a way to make the ar-15 breach accept a .473" diameter case head cartridge.
this may seem somewhat inconsequential, and not worthy of the length of this post, but when the humble magazine does not work, the firearm does not work. period.
it is a matter of room. and, that room is the width of the interior of the ar-15 magazine, which runs about .740" or so, from side to side of the magazine. which dimension is quite a bit less than the .900" of an inch or so, required to allow .473" diameter case head cartridges to properly "double stack."
why is it so important that the cartridges double stack in a magazine to feed properly? well, if they cannot double stack, they are inclined to wedge, jam, bind and tilt, ... , in other words, they will not feed in an orderly fashion one after another to the top of the magazine, where they are stripped off by the bolt and fed into the rifle's chamber.
the several pictures which follow illustrate the matter about as clearly as anything i can conceive. first is a picture of the cartridges in a "double stack," between the jaws of a dial caliper set to just a little less than .900". that 9/10ths of an inch. as you can see, each cartridge makes contact with the cartridges immediately above and below it, and with each cartridge to its side.
caption: note that in the proper double stack, each cartridge contacts the cartridge above and below it on its "side" of the magazine, and also has contact with the cartridge on the other "side" of the double stack. force from the magazine spring/magazine follower is distributed in a more or less "straight line," that being "up."
it makes sense, if you think about it.
second is a picture of the cartridges in between the caliper jaws set at .740", the space of the interior of an ar-15 magazine. they are staggered, but each cartridge makes contact only with the cartridges to its side, and not with either of the cartridges to its top or bottom.
caption: within the confines of a space not wide enough for a proper "double stack," the force of the magazine follower/magazine spring is not distributed in a straight line up both sides of the stack, but, has to follow a zig zag course from one cartridge to the next. in so doing, the forces are directed to the sides of the magazine, and this induces both bulging in the magazine walls, and tends to drag on the sidewalls of the magazine.
this arrangement inhibits sliding straight up, which is what you want.
this tendency must be overcome, if the magazine is to function correctly, and if it is to feed fresh cartridges into the reciprocating bolt. (hint: it goes back and forth, pretty quickly, and the cartridges "don't have much time" to rise and get in front of it. that's about as clearly as i can say it.)
so?
well, it is the way that the forces are vectored. when the bullets are placed in a magazine, they are placed atop a magazine follower, which is powered by a heavy duty spring. it pushes up. and, as it is compressed, with the feeding of each subsequent round into the magazine, it pushes up with even greater force. in a properly designed "double stack" magazine, such force is vectored by each cartridge pretty much to the cartridge immediately above, in a straight line, more or less "up." as a cartridge is removed by the bolt from the top of the magazine, the cartridges below pretty much move up as a unit.
not so with the cartridges within the confines of a magazine too narrow, as is technically, the ar-15 magazine with my little brit.
the force cannot be vectored up in a straight manner, because no cartridge makes contact with a cartridge below or above it, contacting only cartridges to its side. and, so the force of the magazine spring is vectored to the sides of the magazines, in a line going from side to side.--
look at it this way. the magazine follower/spring pushes against the bottom of the stack, while the feed lips holds them in place. any two cartridges on one side of the stack touch only one cartridge on the other side of the stack, at equal angles. as to the "other" cartridge, they can only "push it away," and since the angles are equal, they push it away in a straight line, against the magazine wall. the entire stack is nothing more, in a geometrical sense, than a series of alternating triangles, so described, so that every cartridge in the stack pushes outward against the magazine walls. it is kind of elegant in its own little way. --
the net effects are several. 1.)this pushes the walls of the magazine out, and with an aluminum magazine, it bulges the walls so badly that the magazine will not insert into the magazine well. 2.)in effect, it "fixes" the cartridge stack in place against the walls, because the resultant force vectors are going perpendicular to the line of travel, e.g., not "up." and, this is why even though the forces exerted by the magazine spring are significant the cartridge stack induces binding and jamming, to such an extent that the cartridges, as a group, refuse to go further into the magazine when a fellow is introduced, or the cartridges refuse to go "up," when a fellow is stripped from the top of the magazine by the reciprocating rifle bolt. the only relief to this situation is when a cartridge is stripped from the top of the stack.
but, the situation described causes the resultant reaction to be sluggish, as the cartridges search for a resolution of the forces that tend to hold them pressed against the magazine walls. it is why cartridges not in a classic "double stack" sometimes do not move upward quickly enough to be caught by the bolt face, which passes over them, or sometimes engage them in the middle of the case instead of on the face of the cartridge.
it's called a jam.
technically, it could be called a wedge, i suppose. or, perhaps a bind. i'll leave it to the engineers and physics guys to weigh/"way" what the whole mess is. but, when pressure against the walls of the magazines won't allow the cartridges to move up in a quick & orderly succession as the bolt strips cartridges from the feed lips, .... , well, the rifle stops firing.
the rifle will not work as a semi auto, if cartridges cannot be fed from it.
well, i have a steel waffle magazine from p.r.i. that is reliably feeding from 8 to 10 rounds in succession, with no stoppages, and have just got a steel magazine from nodak spud to feed 9 rounds this afternoon. [first draft remnant, in "real time," but i'll just leave it in here. this is the trouble with writing things "on the go.":jjjay.]
how was this done, given the difficulties outlined above?
well, it pays to have a gun smith who knows his stuff. my friend in montana said, "just watch," when i broached the above concerns to him. actually, he was pretty driven to distraction by all the elaborate schemes i floated to him on how to get the rifle to feed. he said, well we will cross that bridge when we get the thing built, and after we get the operating cycle working.
in other words, build it, "gas" it (that means regulate the gas feed, largely a function of drilling the proper size hole in the barrel to cycle the bolt carrier group: not enough gas, and the bolt won't go back far enough to strip a fresh round, ... , too much gas, and case rims can be damaged, and the bolt cycles so violently as to damage the bolt and the upper receiver.)
he built the rifle.
he drilled the hole at .100", and the bolt wouldn't quite go back far enough. he expanded the hole to .110", and the rifle cycled perfectly. no battering, and the cases in a little pile about 4 feet from a standing shooter.
then he said, "watch this." he grabbed my p.r.i. magazine, and doused it heavily with oil. good old lubricating, penetrating and cleaning gun oil. just drenched it. he laughed at my expression and said, in match shooting, they always said that an ar-15 wasn't working properly unless the oil was dripping from your elbows.
he then used fingers made strong from 30 years in the gun trade to jam 12 cartridges into a magazine that i could barely get 8 to go into, and only then begrudgingly. he raised the rifle, and got one jam. he did it again, put more oil and things, and ran several magazines full, one after another.
"see," he said.
i saw. and, grinned. i have two more p.r.i. mags on back order, and should i live so long as to actually lay eyes on them, they will get the same treatment.
caption: the two magazines to be discussed below.
the p.r.i. is in the foreground, underneath the pistol grips. i direct your attention to the top of the magazine, where the grey/green follower is exposed, controlled by the feed lips. note the waffle indentations on the side of the mag.
in the p.r.i., the indentations running the length of the magazine stop about 1/2" below the feed lips, giving the cartridges a chance to move against the magazine walls, and to be placed directly under the feed lips.
this is important.
the magazine with the cartridge ("jj's brit") sitting on it is a nodak spud reproduction of a vintage colt magazine for the early m-16 rifle. notice that the indents running vertically on the magazine extend all the way to the top & feed lips of the magazine. this was good in the instance where the magazine was filled w/ 5.56x45mm nato rounds, as it reduced friction, keeping them off the side walls.
this is bad, in the instance of getting "jj's brit" to work in the magazine, as it exacerbates the stacking issue, and keeps the rounds from resting against the sidewalls of the mag, as discussed below.
so, as to the p.r.i. magazines, they are strong enough given their waffle structure, that they will neither bulge, nor will they jam, bind, wedge or tilt is the interiors are properly slicked up and polished. actually, the cartridges ride on the interior of the magazines on the raised surfaces made by the waffle imprints in the sides of the mags, to give them strength. and, as the cartridges near the feed lips, they are allowed to fully engage them, because the waffle indents do not go all the way up to the top of the mag.
which brings us to the magazine from nodak spud.
you will note that on the exterior of the nodak spud the indents running bottom to top extend all the way to the feed lips at the top of the magazine. this means, that the cartridges as they engaged the feed lips where being held some distance from the magazine wall, and were not being held very securely by the feed lips. as a consequence of same, the cartridges were inclined to "pop" out of the top of the magazine, when the bolt was first opened, and were inclined to do the same during the operation of the rifle.
the below picture will show quite clearly my "solution" to the problem.
caption: the magazine with the curve to it is the p.r.i., and i have had sufficient sense to leave it the hell alone. the magazine with the straight profile and slanted bottom is the magazine from nodak spud.
look to the top of the magazine, where you can clearly see the relief cuts i have made in the waffle indents of the mags. on the insides of the mag, this has had the effect of eliminating the interior "hump" of the indent, allowing the cartridges to move closer to the side walls, and allowing them to engage the feed lips more fully.
this gives the feed lips more control of the cartridge as it is stripped from the top of the magazine by the forward movement of the bolt/bolt carrier group, as the action cycles.
i simply took the dremel tool, put a little circular wheel on it, and cut a slit into the bottom of the indent. and, widened it. on the interior of the mag, i put a rotary stone on the dremel, and ground down the height of the interior ridges on the "waffle indent." i did this so that the cartridges could more nearly come in contact with the interior walls of the mag near the feed lips, and hence be controlled properly during the feeding process, e.g., so that they would push into the chamber without popping from the mag, and jamming.
caption: on the left, the magazine from p.r.i. it was designed for the 6.8mm remington spc cartridge, which has a larger case diameter than the 5.56x45mm nato round. even so, the radius of the lips are a bit small for "jj's brit," which is even larger in diameter than the 6.8mm round. even so, the magazine lips are a pretty good fit, the radius of the cartridge matching up pretty well with the radius of the feed lips.
on the right, is the nodak spud magazine. it was made to hold and feed the 5.56x45mm nato round, and its radius is much tighter on the interior curve than the exterior of my "jj's brit." you can see the gap between the feed lip and the cartridge case very clearly, and much more pronounced near the exterior wall at the bottom of the feed lip.
this is bad. the magazine lip does not control the cartridge during extraction nearly as well as the p.r.i. magazine. even so, the magazine functions well, after all the tender ministrations described in the text.
(the more observant will have noticed the head stamp "r-p .243 winchester" on the case head. no, those are not .243 winchester cartridges. my little "jj's brit" cases are fabricated from .243 cases, among many other cartridge cases. if you read earlier posts, you will come across articles on how the cases were fabricated. a lot of damned hard work, that's how.)
and, then i drenched the magazine in oil.
this afternoon, i put 9 cartridges in the mag, and shot them in rapid succession, with nary a burp. the bolt held open on the last round, as it is supposed to.
success. temporarily, at least. i don't know how this is going to hold up. it may very well be that by doing this, i will induce and invite stress cracking at some not too distant juncture, (which i suspect.) but, if this leads to failure of the magazine wall at the feed lips, so be it, because the mag did not want to work very much at all as originally designed. (please remember, nodak spud made it for the .223/5.56mm, and not for "jj's brit." it's not their "fault.")
two things must be said about this. 1.)the nodak spud magazine was designed to be a replica of an early colt ar-15/m-16 magazine, and was designed to hold and function with 5.56mm nato ammunition, with a case head nominally of .378" case rim/case head diameter, more or less. it was not designed to handle a case of .473" in diameter. that it functions as well as it does, is something of a miracle. 2.)treating the magazine as i have, by dremeling and filing a slot in the waffle indents will absolutely and irrevocably destroy any warranty associated with the performance of the magazine. just no doubt about it.
the preliminary conclusion, though hardly an absolutely final judgment, is that with a bit of coaxing and wearing in, you can make the "jj's brit" function in the ar-15 magazine and magazine well, without alteration, if you use very sturdy steel magazines.
aluminum is out.
plastic and composite magazines, such as the magpul, are absolutely out, because they do not have sufficient room inside the magazines even to insert the cartridges. you can get about three "jj's brits" into a pmag 20, and it is jammed. it simply will not accept them. and, in defense of the magazine, it simply wasn't designed to function with any cartridge besides the 5.56x45mm nato.
in sum.
by the use of a suitable steel magazine made for the ar-15, and designed to go into the magazine well of an ar-15, you can make the "jj's brit" feed reliably into the ar-15. again, don't forget, this is possible only by the use, in the first instance, of a barrel extension and bolt designed and provided by harrison beane at www.ar15performance.com to use cartridges not to exceed 2.260" of overall length, and fabricated with a casehead dimension of .473" in diameter, (such as in the .30-06 and .308 family of cases, and, as luck would have it, also found in the .30/280 british cartridge.)
there you have it.
john jay @ 03.24.2013
p.s. yes, i assert trademark protection in "jj's brit," as it is a cartridge wholly of my conception and design, and as the weapons made for it were fabricated at my instance.
but, harrison beane made it possible w/ his barrel extension and bolt design. drew458 at barking moonbat was invaluable in helping me develop the loads. and, my gun smith friend in montana built a beautiful ar-15, and a "test mule" before that.
www.ar15performance.com
and, for all those who contributed by giving me parts "on the cheap," and for trade. i could not have afforded the whole mess without your largess. you know who you are.