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November 20, 2012


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JJ –
I take it that you are feeling better and on the road to recovering your health and “Piss and Vinegar” energy levels that sets you above most other AOB’s. I am glad your hands remain firmly on the cyclic and collective with both feet on the pedals. Keep on flying this challenge to the scene of the crash and never give up.

Interesting read and analysis between JJ’s Brit and the 7-30 Waters. Have you ever considered putzing around with hyper-velocity rounds and comparing them to classic loaded rounds? I have loaded HV rounds for my .30/.30 and Weatherby .300 Mag and have sent rounds through the Weatherby down-range through the clocks at speeds in excess of 5,000 fps (75 gr BT) with Hodgon Varget powder) with consistent accuracy at ranges over 1,000 meters. The observable differences between .300 WBY 165 gr and .224 75 gr bt HV loads is phenomenal.

If you want to see the lethality of your in addition to your range data, test your rounds in ballistic gell. If you want to make your own gell, here’s a receipt from http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html - it is a hell of a lot cheaper to make than to buy; there is an added benefit, if you add your favorite flavoring and coloring, you can eat the evidence once you strain out all the bullet pieces.

Have a happy Thanksgiving and have fun if you decide to try any of the above.


p.s. The attenuation of energy of the HV .224 causes almost as much exit damage as the .50 BMG and doesn't make such a mess outside the target.

john jay


quite frankly i wouldn't want to be shot w/ any of them, at any distance.

i prosecuted a case where the victim died when the dura of his heart was sliced for about a 1/4", and the blade penetrated the heart muscle in a corresponding slice about 1/8".

the exterior wound from the small knife blade closed as soon as the blade came out.

the heart bled. as the bleeding continued, the heart had no place to "expand into" after contraction.

the kid died from traumatic asphyxiation, and it didn't take too long, either.

it really doesn't take too much to kill a person, if the right organs and neural centers are damaged. rip and arm from the body, sometimes people survive.

but, damage to the heart is pretty serious stuff. sometimes shutting off an artery will do it, eh?

the point is, as you so very well know, if a bullet hits the right thing in a person, incapacitation is pretty quick, and death follows quickly as well.

makes no difference what the weapon or implement is. i had a client kill a fellow with a full container of mickey's ale, 40 ounce version.


p.s. thanks for the recipe on the gell. i use a simpler recipe ... if a bullet makes a good whack on a 300 yard steel gong at the range, i figure it will work just fine.

john jay


i watched a thing on u-tube, some guy touting the 6.5 grendel. (a good round, but, the most egregiously hyped round of all time, seems to me.)

they shot 5.56 nato, 6.5 grendel, 6.8mm spc and .50 beowulf into 10% jell.

and, since it was "barrier blind" stuff, also through glass, steel and something else as an intermediate barrier before striking the gell.

i couldn't see much difference.

except, the 5.56mm was not markedly different from the 6.5mm and the 6.8mm. the beowulf had a 350 grain gold dot, and it blew up right now.

it is my belief that if a person were hit in the heart with any of these rounds, they would be dead before their knees buckled. a liver or head shot would sort of spoil a victim's day pretty quickly, too.

i don't think a shot to an extremity would make a person feel like running a marathon, but, i don't see how any of them would prove instantly fatal to the exclusion of the others.

my opinion is the same.

i wouldn't want to be well or ill hit with any of them, under any condition. it just wouldn't feel very good at all, if a person lasted long enough to feel anything.



JJ -
Good points all. Anytime a vital organ is struck be it with a bullet, knife blade, 40 ouncer (mass and energy attenuation form a destructive force), practically anything may become a lethal weapon. I think we are in agreement on this point.

As you noted, I am well aware of how fragile an animal's body is. Death may not come instantly, but left un checked, even survivable wounds can become fatal. I have witnessed many more deaths on the battlefield (friendly or enemy) than I care to remember. I have seen more death caused by multiple hits than single ones. As often as not, it is the collateral tissue damage that kills juat as effectively as a bullet to the heart, major vascular vein, or brain.

Like the 40 ouncer, a large, heavy bullet causing secondary injuries as well as the primary wound may or may not necessarily be fatal. My point is that small caliber rounds powered by high velocity can cause massive secondary wounds.

One event I remember very clearly to this day from 1968, was a VC caught with a freak shot. The only mark on his body was a grazing flesh wound on his upper lip just beneath his nose. While the initial injury from the 5.56 mm looked to be very minor, the energy transfer of the round and not the mass of it that was enough to scramble his reptilian brain (the brain stem) causing instantaneous death.

As you say, dead is dead. It doesn't matter if it is immediate or delayed. Dead is dead and final.

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