bricks and rocks versus guns in iran, and the question of an adequate weapon

dear friends:

i have watched a lot of footage of the protest demonstrations going on in iran, and i have noticed that the demonstrators throw bricks and rocks while the basij and militias fire weapons.  the protesters do this from street level.

the fact that 100's of the protesters have been killed as against no known deaths on the part of the regime's oppressors leads me to conclude that a serious inequity in arms does not make for very successful protest, or assertion of one's basic human rights.

i have given this some thought as applies to this country, and have come to the following conclusion.--

i would recommend to each and every one of you who harbors any thought of asserting his individual liberty in the face of a usurping government, to go right out and purchase as many ruger mini-14 ranch rifles as possible, in either 7.62x39 russian (app. .311 caliber, + or - a bit), or 6.8 remingtonspc (.277 caliber, on the nose), and all the ammunition you can afford.  bear in mind, that in choosing between calibers, import russian ammo in 7.62 mm is plentiful and still dirt cheap, whereas the 6.8 remington ammunition is not readily available.

the mini-14 is built like a brick shithouse.  it is robust, reliable and not prone to breakage, and needs very little service to run.  it is not finicky, and does not require the attention to detail as does an ar-15 (and m-16 civilian clone), usually found in .223 remington.  in its present iteration, if is reasonably accurate.  not as accurate as the mini-14, but amazingly rugged, i would recommend the soviet sks carbine (the best are czeck made) in 7.62x39 mm, if you are limited by budgetary considerations.

it is very brave, but ultimately foolhardy, to oppose rifles and pistols with rocks and bricks, especially if the thugs you oppose have no compunction about shooting an unarmed person.  let me give you a hint.--  thugs of any stripe or origin or nationality, have no compunction about shooting unarmed persons, it is ever so much easier than shooting someone who is shooting back.

so, unless you wish to find yourself in the same situation as the demonstrators in iran, i suggest that you arm yourself, with rifle, ammunition, and a damned prickly and irritable disposition, and a willingness to use those attributes and arms to protect yourself, and your liberties.

Comments

[Shoshona]

Sounds reasonable. But they have tanks and helicopters in addition to guns. Where would I store my tanks in helicopters in my 5th floor walk-up?

[Shoshona]

*correction to above: tanks and helicopters

[john jay]

dear miss greenberg:

as for storing your tanks and helicopters, i would recommend right besides the fixings for your molotov cocktails, in the dry sink/closet. laughing.

it won't be the regular army or even the national guard who will turn on the people. it will be obama's "private security force" comprised of ex-acorn types, and those with grievances against the larger society, that you have to worry about.

and sheriffs and local police who enforce court orders from judges who would usurp the constitution.

your mini-14 will work just fine in that circumstance. just learn how to use it.

besides, if you look to your history of urban warfare, you will find out that armies loathe cities. tanks and helicopters are what are called "stand off" weapons, where a military can use superior range to kill at a distance which is safe to it. no such place exists in an urban environment, especially one with fifth floor walk ups. cannot get down into the urban canyons if you are a helicopter, without being a sitting duck. (you notice any other buildings around in that arnold schwarzkof & jamie lee curtis movie where he blasted the guys inside the building with the helicopter machine guns. too dangerous to fly in such places.) cannot elevate your main battle cannon that high if you are a tank.

no, if someone tries to root you out of your fifth floor walk up, he will have to come up the stair well to do it, or blast you with field piece or shoulder or hand held t.o.w. missiles and the like, neither prospect relished by infantry as performed from the ground, and neither process even contemplated from a stair well, which would be a very nasty place indeed if a molotov cocktail were dropped donw it.

that is why cities are by-passed by armies. nobody thought stalingrad was very much fun.

that is why cities are bombed from the air or laid siege. either case, you won't need a helicopter or a tank anyway.

you lay onto a stinger type hand held shoulder launched missile or two, and you are pretty invulnerable. you could cause someone a lot of trouble in coming after you. laughing.

if you have enough food and potables, and a whole bunch of diaper wipes to make up for the lack of toilet paper, you can hold your position a long time. a privation never discussed in all the battle stuff i have ever read, but which must have been at a premium. laughing.

no, miss greenberg, you get yourself a rifle and learn how to use it, and you will be a formidable combatant, from that aerial redoubt of yours.

and, besides, what are you gonna do without your rifle? again, i recommend the mini-14 in 6.8 rem spc, or 7.62 russian.

john jay

[Shoshona]

Uh, Hungary, tanks in the streets? Revolution over? Just asking.

Why are you addressing me as Miss Greenberg when I signed in as Shoshona?

[Porcupine]

I accept personal defense as a natural right. The founding principals of this nation accept it as the same. Standing up for principals is a personal choice. The value you place on principal is the only measure of your commitment and the comparative strength of an opponent. I have heard the argument many times that resistance is futile against the overwhelming power of large, mechanized, high powered weapons systems and therefore the question of small arms is moot. Why bother? Well, there's that principal and the fact that you have to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, and wait for sleep at night all by yourself.
An old friend used to say that "it's not the size of the man in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the man"
Hungarian revolution? I don't know enough about it to comment.
Warsaw ghetto? Yes, they were all rooted out and shot. But they resisted and stalled one of the most powerful armies in the world on principal. They were finally defeated because the entire city was destroyed and yes, they were all rooted out and shot. But there were hundreds of thousands of others who were simply walked from their homes and shot. We have choices in this life.

[Porcupine]

I mean principle.

[john jay]

porcupine:

agreed on all fronts. i wish i had said it the same way myself. well said.

john jay

[Grumpy Old Gunsmith]

I've a friend that sheared a bolt lug on his Mini-14 with factory loads so they aren't indestructible and AR pattern rifles can be cleaned, as far as for field purposes, in 5 minutes with a modicum of training unless you were born with water on the brain and it's a coin toss as to which is an easier detail strip for serious cleaning. I'd lean towards Stoner pattern rifles (AR/M rifles) for that prize. AKs and SKSs run better dirty if you're talking environmental grime like sand and mud. If you're talking how well they run if they aren't cleaned regularly but you aren't using garbage corrosive ammo--they both run a long time but anybody that is depending on a rifle to save their life and doesn't spend a lot of time cleaning it whenever the opportunity presents is a moron anyway and not long for dueling with any government's forces.

6.8SPC is not commonly available on shelves at the moment. Whether or not that will get better is a tough call, I wouldn't plan on it getting better any time soon. If you're looking at cartridges in that range 6.5 Grendel is a better cartridge anyway and they are both currently mostly reloader cartridges. 6.8 won't do you a damn bit of good taking ammo/mags off dead soldiers/police in any part of the world I know of.

In non pie in the sky daydream terms for non-reloaders you might re-write your article and suggest that depending on where you live you should buy something in one or some of these chamberings:

7.62 Russian or NATO (depending on who you are going to be fighting)

5.56 or 5.45mm choice dependent on likely OPFOR once again)

12 gauge

9x18 or 9x19mm (possibly in the Russian 7N21 variant depending on where you live)

The above is actual practical advice. Your's was a vague starting point but some of your assumptions are wrong.

In actual battle, ammo goes real fast and it won't matter how much you have stockpiled in short order and you'll be scavenging from the enemy.

Friend (R.I.P.) landed on Okinawa as part of Uncle Sam's Misguided. He and his pals took the liberty of "liberating" the interesting items in their transport ship's armory as they were going ashore and the boat drivers weren't. He snagged a Thompson with one magazine, carried it around for 2 days along with his Garand, and couldn't find magazines or loose .45ACP for it and threw it in a ditch as it was useless and added weight to his gear load.

More than one NATO SpecOps sodier I've known over the years has carried COMBLOC stuff in the field at times for the exact same reasons I wouldn't advise anybody making 6.8SPC their primary rifle. If it ever becomes general issue, I'll re-consider. It likely never will become anything close to general issue. People have been saying one of the intermediate 6mms would be adopted since the late 50s and it still hasn't happened.

As for me, I have a few of all of the above and the AMAZING THING ABOUT A STONER PATTERN RIFLE IS:

I've got 5.56mm, .223, .223AckImp, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8SPC uppers with bolt/bolt carrier assemblies, removable carry handles with sights, as well as advanced optics for the ARs I own. Push two pins, swap, put pins back--possible magazine swap, and you can have them in any chambering you like. 7.62x39 uppers are also available. GO DO THAT WITH A RUGER OR SKS. If you don't like direct gas systems, put a indirect gas system on it and add weight to your rifle for no practical purposes...

My personal bigotry.

I agreed with you up to the point of everybody should be armed, then you kinda fell apart. If it's to save your life, spend the extra money instead of looking for rock bottom prices on survival tools (arms are survival tools) and train with them too. Otherwise you may as well be throwing rocks and bricks anyway.

[Justin Credible]

jj: i am certainly an utter novice at this, but i recently read about the ruger mini-30. what are your opinions about that rifle?

thanks,

[john jay]

justin:

i think the ruger mini-30 just about ideal for the purposes i would contemplate.

i would read grumpy's letter.-- he makes salient points, not the least of which is the ease with which various sights and such may be mounted on ar-type rifles, due to what is called a picatinny rail.

but, i think he misses the point of my advice.

this article is not for the genuine gun nut who knows and is capable of maintaining weapons.

this article is intended for the concerned citizen contemplating the purchase of a first fire arm by which to assert his liberties, if need be.

in that regard, i remain of the opinion that the mini-14 series of rifles is a very good bet, and in the calibers recommended.

the supply of .223 and 7.62 ammo is very large. it may become very restricted, if our government moves to limit supplies.

so, buy your weapon and ammo now, learn how to use them, and lay in a stock of ammo.

john jay

p.s. i am not hostile to what grumpy says, and found his letter quite enjoyable. i have responded to it privately. but, i think my advice solid, and i would recommend the mini-14 as a simple, reliable and very durable gun.

i have seen a bolt completely blown out of a remington 700 bolt action rifle, bending both bolt lugs and elongating the receiver to allow its passage.

it doesn't happen often.

i wouldn't think ruger mini-14's fail very often, either.

at any rate, the russian sks remains a very rugged and durable weapon, just not horribly accurate.

[john jay]

justin:

one final matter.

the mini-14 and sks rifles are a bit more "intuitive" in their workings and function than an ar-type rifle, most of the workiings of the -14 & sks being readily visible and accessible.

the "manual of arms" for both rifles is very simple, and i think them very likely quicker to put into action than a stoner based rifle.

for this reason, i think them superior to the ar-type rifle for the average person, and especially the first time gun buyer.

i have nothing against ar-type rifles. i own two, both of which i shoot with iron sights, and with scopes, which are readily accessible. i also have two eotech holographic sights which go back and forth on the ar-'s via the picatinny rail.

they are very fun rifles, and exceedingly accurate, and even a duffer like me can ring a 400 yard gong with one, like johnny be good, in hte old chuck berry song.

i just don't think them as easy to learn how to use, or as reliable as the mini-14 and sks, and they are very servicable.

so, if you are a first time rifle buyer, buy the mini-14 or the sks.

if you are an experienced gun person, and can devote the time to servie and repair on an ar-15, and don't find the "manual at arms" involved, then by all means, they are wonderful weapons. in that, i have no disagreement with grumpy.

i do own two of them, as noted.

[Grumpy Old Gunsmith]

Read and responded to yer letter. In 7.62x39 or 7.62x45 :-), as the latter is a better cartridge if you don't mind making your own brass from something else...

The best dang COMBLOC rifle ever issued in my semi-non-humble-opinion was the Czech VZ-52 aka Che Rifle. They took the best of German and American WW II battle rifle designs and it's a shame the Warsaw Pact made them rebarrel most to the lesser 7.62x39 for ammo commonality, though it made sense militarily.

Give me Czech Metalsmiths and Machinists, as well as designers, over the rest of the COMBLOC stuff any day of the week. If you run into one at a gun show that has a decent bore in x39, it might be worth your while, although I doubt you'll buy any for 35 bucks like I did in the now distant past...

Read about HERE:
http://mauser98.com/vz52.html

[john jay]

grump:

as to the vz-52, agreed. 100%.

as to czech arms in general, i think they are of very high quality. in short, we are in absolute agreement on this point. the czech's have a long tradition of fine manufacture.

recently, talked to a couple fellows at a local range. they were just back from a gun show where each had purchased an sks.

they claimed to have paid in excess of $250 each. lordie, i can remember when a pretty fair sks would go at about the $100 mark.

i didn't dare ask what they paid for ammo.

a far cry from the halcyon days of the now distant past. laughing.

john jay

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that is why cities are by-passed by armies. nobody thought stalingrad was very much fun.

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Right now my gun collection right now is mostly just Eastern Block Military peices. I love them all, and have lots of fun shooting them, however none of them are terribly valuable. I do have a few slightly more valuable peices such as a Browning Challenger III, a Ruger GP100, and a Ruger P89, and a Remington 870 Express Magnum 12 Gauge. I'd like to add a few more collectable and valuable guns to my collection, but I'd like some suggestions.

[john jay]

cheap kamagra:

a ruger mini-14 as suggested, or an ar-15 type rifle in whatever caliber you would like.

a springfield armory m-1a in .308 win./7.62mm nato.

a winchester model 70 featherweight, in 7mm-08 remington or .308 winchester, with a good scope.

all the bad habits i have or have had i attribute to the purchase of a cheap scope on my first high powered rifle.

spell that, f.l.i.c.h. that damned scope whacked me on the forehead or on the frames of my sunglasses, every shot.

buy a good american made scope. spell that l.e.u.p.o.l.d. after you have shot the same one on three or four differenct rifles over a 25 year period, you will not complain about it.

john jay