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November 06, 2008

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JewishOdysseus

That was quite a bit more education about hollow-point bullet marksmanship than I needed at this time of night...I'm reporting you to the Obot Thought Police.

song

I know nothing about guns. Absolutely nothing. So I had no idea really what you were talking about. Sounds to me like the learning curve is steep..As a woman, however, I have learned Shaolin Kung Fu for self defense, as well has nunchaku's. Most people who own guns just laugh at me..

what do you think?

PS. I am glad you have posted again. I am not happy with the election, either.
My greatest concern is for our troops..
less for me, of course than them..

PRCalDude

I can't, for the life of me, understand why you're trying to deal with this cartridge. Yes, it may have more energy and knock-down power, but it's rare as hell. We need rifles in the ubiquitous .223 caliber.

Obviously, Dear Leader will try to restrict all "military" ammunition, meaning everything over 22LR, and possibly even 22LR, so we need to learn how to re-load. I, personally, think we need to learn how to make our own propellants as well.

Frank

Come on -- why mess around with the complicated feeding system of an AR just to end up with small caliber wound anyway?

Get an AK.

john jay

phil:
i think i am on the radar screen already. laughing.

song:
unless you are handy with a blow gun, bow & arrow, or throwing stars, your ability to stand off and away from your aggressor and defend yourself without exposure to a great deal of risk is about 15 feet. (this is assuming some proficiency with edged weapons.)

the ability to defend one's self with the weapon and cartridge discussed in this post is a reasonable 350 yards or so, with a reasonable amount of practice to gain proficiency with the weapon. a great deal of practice and some skill at range estimation might extend that proficiency another couple hundred yards.

in addition, the weapon may see added to it very good optics, and even night capable sights, which greatly adds to one's ability to have some degree of stealth in one's operational capabilities.

i would not laugh at anyone who knows and has obtained skills in the martial arts.

i would suggest, however, to anyone who is concerned about protecting him/herself in any kind of political context involving conflict and violence, or socio/economic context involving the same, that they acquire firearms, learn how to use them with good optical sighting equipment, and buy lots of ammunition, reloading components and reloading toos.

caldude:

i have an ar-15 in .223 remington, and consider it a fine weapon. i have a friend, (amazing, ain't it? laughing.), a marine and a professional gun smith, who has hunted extensively in africa with a .223 bolt action rifle, and he says it is an entirely compotent weapon up to and including deer size game. this is not surprising, as the cartridge was designed to be lethal on 250+ lb. mammals.

i agree, it is a good weapon, and a good caliber, for the uses intended.

i also own an ar-15 in 6.8mm remington spc. i am becoming quite fond of the 115 grain sierra bthp bullet in the firearm, w/ 29.5 grains of h-335 & cci 200 primers behind it, for a muzzle velocity of about 2550 to 2600 fps. this compares very favorably to, and is in fact, slightly superior to the standard 123 or 124 grain loading in the 7.62x39mm russian assault rifle round.

which seques me to.--

frank:

there is nothing wrong with the ak-series of sino/soviet weapons, and for that matter, the predecesor sks is a very good, rugged, reliable and servicable rifle in the 7.62x39mm cartridge.

as noted above, there is very little difference either ballistically or in terminal performance between the 6.8mm rem. spc, and the 7.62x39mm russian round. the 7.62 round is actually .311 inch in diameter, more or less, while the 6.8 round is .277 inch, or caliber, in diameter: the russian round is 34 thousands of an inch larger in diameter, or 3.4 hundreths, and weighs 8 grains more, a rather insignificant difference given that it takes 440 grains of this unit of measure to equal an ounce. 8/440'ths of an ounce is not much of a diffence in bullet mass.

the .277 round has a slight edge in muzzle velocity over the russian round, and at any reasonable distance, say between 100 to 400 yards, it delivers significantly more energy on target due to the very superior flight characteristics, having a much higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density than the russian round: all factors being equal, bullet construction, etc., the 6.8mm will both out penetrate and outperform the older round.

there are no fleas on the 7.62 round, and the 6.8mm is slightly better.

take your pick.

in other posts, i have recommended the sks & 7.62x39mm to readers of this blog, without hestitation. i prefer the ar-15, which though slightly less robust, is lightyears ahead of the russian rifles in accuracy, and in the sighting equipment, e.g., optical sights, which may be mounted on it.

quite frankly, at close quarters, there is very little to choose. at distance, however, say any range beyond 125 yards or so, a person equiped with an ar-15 rifle has a very decided advantage over an ak-47 equiped adversary.

ask any ak-47 equipped al queda or talibani who has ever come up against a marine contingent equipped with acog or aimpoint or the eotech optics, let alone a quality glass optic with a little bit of multiplication to it.

friends, in addition to this military stuff, i own a couple of winchester model 70 deer and elk hunting rifles, each equipped w/ leupold optics, and save for close quarters combat, a person so equipped has the ability to engage an opponent eqipped with the ak-47 and iron sights, with precision & pinpoint bullet placement, at distances in which the ak-47 wielding assaillant is going to have to rely on blind luck and providence even to come close to a person so equipped.

so, if you are a reader, and you own a 7mm-08 remington, or a .308 winchester, or a .30-06 or a 7mm remington magnum, consider yourself well armed, assuming you are motivated to use it and are proficient in its use adn carry, and maintenance.

any owner of any weapon should well consider having a parts kit for his weapons. for the ar-15 weapon, an extra trigger group, and a kit to maintain and repair the bolt, extractor and ejector should be owned, along with spare pins and such, for those clumsy moments which cannot be undone. i have seen gunsmiths search for long moments on clean floors for the damn things, and if you loose such in the forest duff or in a lawn, you haven't a prayer to recover same.

reader prcaldude's observation about ammunition is well taken. the .223, an the 7.62 russian, are just easier to obtain than 6.8mm remington spc, as it has just come on line commercially, and the options are limited unless you reload.

i do.

i am coming to like the sierra bullet, as mentioned, as well as the 110 grain a-max from hornady.

folks, buy, right now.--

--an ar-15 rifle of your choice in caliber, or an ak or sks rifle in 7.62 russian.

--as much ammunition as you can afford.

--adequate "storage" for the same, to include those occassions when something must be stored outside. i heartily recommend heavy pvc tubing, capped with glued end caps, and at a depth likely to avoid detection by treasure hunters, and the like.

--reloading tools, and lots of components, including brass cases, powder, bullets and primers.

--a 1911 colt self loading pistol, in .45 acp, or a browing high power or a springfield armory xd-9, in 9mm parabellum. some will say the cartridge cannot kill people readily enough, to which i say, horsefeathers and nonsense: i have read too many police reports and autopsies to believe such nonsense. an equally good choice would be a ruger gp-100 revolver in .357 magnum caliber, a very fine, robust, reliable and practically unbreakable weapon. evan marshall, who keeps track of such things, says the 124 grain .357 hollowpoint is the number one one-shot fight stopper in pistol calibers. he ought to know, he keeps track of such things for police agencies all over the united states, and is a recognized authority.

i hope this has been helpful.

john jay


Frank

Good points to ponder re: AK vs AR.

My AK is new manufacture with some (reputed) quality control built-in, so I am hoping for better-than-usual distance capabilities. I've loaded up on optics with magnification, three color dots plus laser.

However, my shooting range is 100 yds only, so I guess I can't really tell how it will group at longer distances. But I do manage to group *somewhat* tightly at the 100 so I am hoping that will stick at longer ranges.

That said, I chose the AK (recently, after years of non-shooting since military service where I used an M16) due to some of the same considerations you mention. Most specifically, I wanted a robust weapon that could take all kinds of abuse with limited maintenance from decided non-expert (me), and - like the old Timex - still keep on ticking. I hope time will demonstrate that this was unnecessary caution.

shawn c

I have started reloading my 6.8 rounds with the 115 gr sierra matching with 22.5 gr IMR 4198 and have had wonderful grouping at long ranges out to 700 yards so far out of a stag M4

john jay

shawn c:

it is 8 months after you posted this comment, which i have run across by accident.

i wish i had read it later.

when first loading the 6.8 i tried to use h-335, w-748, rl-15 and a number of other powders a little slower than h-322 and imr-4198.

i got pretty mediocre grouping, at all ranges.

i found imr-4198 perhaps a little too quick, but have recently tried h-322 behind 115 grain sierra's, shooting the max loading from the hodgdon web site of 28.2 grains. pressure signs are almost nil, and the rifle groups pretty well.

not spectacularly, but pretty well.

oddly enough, i found the imr-4198 to work pretty well with plain old speer flat base 130 grain bullets, much to my suprise, again with not much pressure sign, case expansion in some instances being only .001" over the full lenght sized dimension of the case.

i guess these small cases are just not as sensitive to burn rates as larger cases are. and the .277 bore is probably got enough expansion ratio to take the quick burn rate. i kinda expected that with lower weight bullets, but that the round performed so well with heavier bullets did surprise me, indeed.

i am growing quite fond of this case, and the 6.8 upper, after some teething problems.

john jay

T. Ost

I also tried many combinations for hand loading the 6.8 spc. I had many of the same issues with diameter fluctuation and even after finding a bullet which stayed at .277 long enough for the target seating depth, I couldn't get a tight enough crimp to hold it in place. I even chased down the Lee factory crimp die, and still had no luck. With deer hunting fast approaching, I finally resorted to the SSA w/85 grain Barnes TSX. It worked fine and put their lights out, so my next try will be to load this bullet combo, as it worked quite well. Any suggestions on holding the bullet still would be greatly appreciated.

tost.

john jay

t. ost:

i have published an index of my articles reloading to handloading and other issues regarding the 6.8mm remington spc in the ar-15 rifle.

http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2010/07/an-index-of-posts-on-the-68-remington-spc-adventures-in-reloading-making-the-ar15-work-in-this-chamb.html .

this cartridge has become a "fast" favorite, after spending considerable time figuring out how to get it to shoot.

and, its does!!

i have settled on a favorite load of 28.2 grains of h-322 behind a 115 grain sierra matchking bullet, in remington cases w/ cci large rifle primers.

this load is from the hodgdon's website. while it is shown there as a maximum load, it indicates no pressure signs at all in my rifle. i would note that the powder level is right at the junction of the case and shoulder, perhaps just a bit above.

i have also found that speer 130 grain hot cores w/ reduced loads of h-322, as per the speer manual, also work exceedingly well, and shoot basically to the same point of aim.

i have really come to enjoy the shooting the 6.8mm spc, and i think that everyone should give it a twirl.

as far as "holding the bullet still." you simply have to look for a bullet shape that holds the .277 along its length. in this regard, the sierras and the speers work wonderfully. and, nosleer ballistic tips are just too tapered, in my experience, at least the 130 grain which is made for the .270 winchester.

have fun.

john jay

p.s. caution. i am not a ballistician. nor, a reloading manual. use only reputable and dependable sources for constructing your own loads, and start at a safe level and work up.

John

COL of 2.295" helps. In the 6.8spcII if it fits in the mag its good to go.

dustin lamp

I just loaded 130g.r. ballistic tip in my t.c. encore they shoot great and they usually drop in their tracts...would highly reccomend it

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