in sura 46, "the sand dunes," addresses its arguments against disbelievers who assert that mohammed "... has invented ..." the koran, verse 8, the implication of the disbelievers being that the revelation does not flow from god.
to meet these assertions, god instructs mohammed in the sura to answer the disbelievers as follows:
9. say, "i am nothing new among god's messengers. i do not know what will be done with me or you; i only follow what is revealed to me; i only warn plainly."
10. say, "have you thought: what if this qur'an really is from god and you reject it? what if one of the children of israel testifies to its similarity [to earlier scripture] and believes in it, and yet you are too proud to [do the same]? god certainly does not guide evildoers."
11. those who disbelieve say of the believers, "if there were any good in this qur'an, they would not have believed in it before we did," and, since they refuse to be guided by it, they say, "this is ancient fiction."
12. yet the scripture of moses was revealed bfore it as a guide and a mercy, and this is a scripture confirming it in the arabic language to warn those who do evil and bring good news for those who do good.
13. for those who say, "our lord is god," and then follow the straight path there is no fear, nor shall they grieve: 14. they are the people of paradise, there to remain as a reward for what they were doing.
sura 46, "the sand dunes," verses 9-14 [not inclusive], the qur'an, a translation by muhammad a.s. abdel haleem, oxford university press, 2004, u.s.a., pages327-28.
well, this is really quite extraordinary.--
1.) in verse 10, mohammed argues that the scripture revealed to him can be verified and legitimized if a jew testifies to its similarity to scripture revealed by moses in hebrew to the jewish people. in verse 12, mohammed argues that the scripture of the koran was revealed first by moses in antiquity, and that the koran is the same scripture as revealed by moses only it is given by god via gabriel in the arabic language, so that it may be clearly understood.
put simply, mohammed turns to the jews to validate the koran, as he has received it in arabic.
as i read the above passages no other conclusion can be reached. it is as simple as that.
2.) in verses 13 & 14 there is the clear intimation that for those jews who follow the straight path of the koran, and to follow the straight path of the laws as laid down by moses is to follow the koran because the koran is the law of moses only stated in arabic, there is salvation and paradise which awaits. what else can the phrase "... this is a scripture confirming it ... " mean, "it" clearly referring to the scripture as revealed by moses?
in sura 45, "kneeling," mohammed again addresses the disbelievers, and in language which is quite explicit clearly intimates that salvation awaits those who follow the straight path of god's revelation, ... , and that such salvation is not ruled out for the jews.
i find the following passages from the sura, "kneeling," to be quite revealing:
14. tell the believers to forgive those who do not fear god's days [of punishment]-- he will not requite people for what they have done. 15. whoever does good benefits himself, and whoever does evil harms himself; you will all be returned to your lord.
16. we gave scripture, wisdom, and prophethood to the children of israel; we provided them with good things and favoured them above others; 17. we gave them clear proof in matters [of religion]. they differed among themselves out of mutual rivalry, only after knowledge came to them: on the day of resurrection your lord will judge between them regarding their differences. 18. now we have set you [muhammed] on a clear religious path, so follow it.*** do not follow the desires of those who lack [true] knowledge-- 19. they cannot help you against god in any way. wrongdoers only have each other to protect them; the righteous have god himself as their protector.
20. this [revelation] is a means of insight for people, a source of guidance and mercy for those of sure faith.
21. do those who commit evil deeds really think that we will deal with them in the same way as those who believe and do righteous deeds, that thy will be alike in their living and their dying? how badly they judge! 22. god created the heavns and earth for a true purpose: to reward each soul according to its deeds . they will not be wronged.
sura 45, "kneeling," verses 14-22 [not inclusive], the qur'an, a translation by muhammad a.s. abdel haleem, oxford university press, 2004, u.s.a., page 325.
*** you should be reminded, that "... the clear religious path ... " sent to mohammed, the straight path which leads to salvation on the day of resurrection/the day of judgment, is the law as revealed by god to moses, subsequently communicated by god to mohammed, as the same scripture.
it is the same scripture, if you will but remember from the passages above.
the same scripture.
whether believed by jews, by christians, by muslims, ... , it is the same scripture. and, not merely by my assertion or argument, but as revealed by and as the word of god.
it applies to all men, who shall obey it.
and, it protects all men, "... who shall not be wronged ..." by its misapplication. it says so quite clearly.
those islamic jihadists who kill indiscriminately should keep something in mind. "god created the heavens and earth for a true purpose: to reward each soul according to its deeds." and, god has said, that in exercising such judgment as between believers and disbelievers, and as between contending believers who have fallen into discord, "they will not be wronged."
if not by god, then certainly not by man.
on the day of resurrection jews will be judged for their adherence to the path of the laws as laid down by moses, on the very same basis that muslims will be judged for their adherence to the path of the scripture revealed by mohammed.
simple as that, seems to me. child's play, really.
i think that muslims who carry out islamic jihad in the name of the koran against infidels, jews in particular, without any further justification commit murder, according to islam. those muslims who have killed innocents purely for shock and horror and to intimidate will be judged by god, and found barbaric and depraved, and that they shall be confined to the fire.
they, and the imams and ayatollahs and politicians who incited and aided & abetted them.
god did not create human souls to have them slaughtered by depravity, defiled in the basest lust. as gypsy rose lee so rightfully remarked, "good don't make junk," and god most assuredly did not make it to be wasted by thugs, killer and lunatics. they will be adjudged accordingly, and their misunderstanding and misapprehension of islam shall be no protection from the fire.
how do i know this? because the koran tells me so.
so far, in my reading of the koran, i can see absolutely no theological justification in the koran for wanton, indiscriminate killing by muslims meant to horrify, especially as that killing applies to the killing of innocents and children.
not when such persons who are the victims of such killing follow the path as laid down by the laws of moses, and not perforce when such victims follow the path and the laws of god as revealed by god to mohammed in the koran.
the scripture of moses is the scripture of the koran. whether followed by jews, christians or muslims.
how do i know? the koran tells me so.
i don't need no stinkin' badges, and i don't need no stinkin' imam or ayatollah or some other piss ant islamic cleric to tell me what i read. they worship idols, which "they have invented for themselves," and for their political purposes. they worship the graven images of violence and hate. they worship themselves.
john jay 09.09.2011
I am as far from being an expert on the Koran as a person can get but it seems to me that abrogation would nicely toss all peaceful verses like that in the garbage can or anywhere else they want to put them so they can be ignored while the direct instructions of destruction can be pursued.
Posted by: Bob Devine | September 11, 2011 at 10:20 PM
bob:
here is the trouble with abrogation, and the trouble with most of islam.--
the koran is not written in the order that the "revelations" were received. the koran was put together after mo's death, ... , and, after a battle in which a whole bunch of the people who had memorized were killed.
islam, being fearful that all who knew it by heart might be killed, then had the verses written/transcribed.
then, a committee (wouldn't you just know it) got together, and put the verses into their current order.
that same "committee," more or less, a highly fallible group of men, decides issues of abrogation: 1.)what comes prior or later, 2.)do verses apply to the same subject matter, and 3.)what do it mean?
and, there are little issues such as sunni vs. shia interpretations, and who kills whom in order to "fix" or "interpret" the meaning of scripture.
now, there are 114 sura's. and, somewhere in the order of 6200 verses, or so.
some of the verses are pretty cryptic, e.g., in a lot of ways, the verses can be pretty close to pure gibberish.
so, in deciding abrogation, first you have to understand just exactly what the prior in time verse meant, if anything, and then just exactly was the later in time verse means, before you can even begin to decide if the later one supersedes or contradicts the prior.
and, finally, there is the little matter i have raised, which seem fundamental to me.--
when god speaks, he says that he reveals the "scripture," and he is rather insistent that the scripture mo is receiving is the same scripture that moses received, and noah and abraham before him.
one scripture.
the scripture is a unity.
when you take a look at the fact that god is: 1.)eternal, 2.)all knowing, and 3.)all wise, ... , and couple that with the unity of scripture, it does not admit to me that god's revelations are just willy nilly off the cuff, and given to stating what "just occurred to him."
in short, i think that "abrogation" is just a way for the imams, ayatollahs and various clerics, to manipulate the religion for whatever temporal purpose suits them.
in short, institutional islam has far different needs, and a far different reach than religious islam, if there ever was such a thing.
in short, immutable truth gets mutated and muted for the political needs of islam as an institution run by mortals, and for mortals.
of the mortals, by the mortals and for the mortals. as it were.
but, i have always been a bit of a skeptic.
john jay
Posted by: john jay | September 12, 2011 at 02:44 PM
p.s.
i am through 63 verses. even so, the remaining verses only run another 50 pages or so of text, i.e., the remaining verses are quite brief. same perhaps an eighth of a page.
i have not run across any that contradict the theology of the unity of scripture.
and, i just don't think i am gonna.
in additional, the passages i have quoted are at some length, their theme is unified, and they are written with as much clarity as you are gonna find in the koran.
in short, the muzzies simply ignore that which they want neither to follow nor to acknowledge.
islam is a religion of stodgy old farts who run around in beards and gunny sacks.
very damned few martin luther's in the hierarchy that runs islam.
they tend to kill 'em off, those who would think for themselves, or differ or depart from dogma.
john jay
Posted by: john jay | September 12, 2011 at 02:50 PM