islam on very thin theological ice .... the fallibility of "prophethood" ....

islam is infallible, and therefore immutable.

or, looked at the other way, islam is immutable and therefore infallible.

and, just here i am reminded very strongly of justice robert jackson's remark in a case before the united states supreme court.  jackson sat as an associate justice on the court from 1941 to 1954, and presided over the nuremberg trials.  his remark concerning the finality of the institutional decision making process that is law is famous, and quite appropriate within this context.  said jackson, of decisions handed down by the court and their binding effect in the law, "we are not final because we are infallible, we are infallible because we are final."

jackson was not speaking of religion, or theologically.  he was simply saying that at some points legal issues came to a stop, and in the united states, that stop was the supreme court of the united states.

for islam, the finality lies in the word of allah.  for muslims, the word of allah is from mohammed.

or, does it?  and, is it?

sura 15 is entitled "the bee," and it has several interesting pronouncements with regard to god's revelations.

says the koran:

93.  if god so willed, he would have made you all one people, but he leaves to stray whoever he will and guides whoever he will.  you will be questioned about your deeds.   ...  96.  what you have runs out but what god has endures, and we shall certainly reward those who remain steadfast according to the best of their actions.

98.  [prophet], when you recite the qur'an, seek god's protection from the outcast, satan.  99.  he has no power over those who believe and trust in their lord; 100.  his power is only over those who ally themselves with him and those who, because of him, join partners with god.  101.  when we substitute one revelation for another--and god knows best what he reveals--they say, "you are just making it up," but most of them have no knowledge.  102.  say that the holy spirit has brought the revelation with the truth step by step from your lord, to strengthen the believers and as guidance and good news to the devout.  103.  we know very well that they say, "it is a man who teaches him," but the tongue of the person they maliciously allude to is incapable of expression, which this revelation is in clear arabic.  104.  if people do not believe in god's revelation, god does not guide them, and a painful torment awaits them.

sura 16, "the bee,"  verses 93-104, the qur'an, a translation by muhammad a.s. abdel haleem, oxford university press, 2004, u.s.a., pages 172-73.

this is revelation.

it can be no else, as the holy spirit is speaking directly to the prophet, and the holy spirit decries the notion that mohammed speaks for himself.  and, most certainly, mohammed would not have deigned to have ever spoken for god, now would he.

so, this is revelation.

and, according to the koran, what is revealed by god is that he has "... substituted one revelation for another."

this presents an interesting problem, theologically speaking.

there are two possibilities here.

1.)all revelation is consistent.  the truth as revealed by abraham, moses, jesus, john the baptist and isaiah, to name just a few, is therefore consistent with what mohammed says in the course of his revelation.

i am through 22 sura's of the koran, and i will read several more this evening.  to this point, mohammed adopts and reasserts the truth of the bible, the jewish torah and the christian gospel, as the word of god.  except for his disavowal of jesus being the son of god as believed by the followers of the gospel, he repudiates no specific text of the bible, and often says that those who abide by it await salvation, even is not followers of his revelations.

2.)the word of god is malleable, at least as it is presented to human kind via god's prophets.  and, it follows, that god reveals what he reveals depending upon the situation in which his revelations are made.

alternative no. 1.  what has islam changed.

alternative no. 2.  if indeed the revelations contained in the koran are to be contemplated as being substituted for earlier revelation and scripture, then what does this say about the immutability and finality of god's word.

mohammed has said repeatedly that previous revelation in the torah and the gospels is the word of god.  and, that god is all knowing, all mighty, and infallible.  does such a god change his mind?  does such a god perform error?  does such a god withhold truth, or does he change truth?

does he mislead the prophets?

these are troubling issues with regard to god's fallibility.

these are crippling issues with regard to the infallibility we are to attribute in prophets.  we have seen earlier in the koran how mohammed has described a gathering of god and his prophets, in which he secures their agreement that they will not later challenge the nature of the divine revelation to be reported by mohammed as received from god.

101.  when we substitute one revelation for another--and god knows best what he reveals--they say, "you are just making it up," but most of them have no knowledge."

well, what about those who presumably do have knowledge on the subject?  are they making it up?

the koran is, according to islam, infallible and immutable.

but, if only god "knows best" what he reveals, and if he has chosen to "substitute" one revelation for another through mohammed, then what can mohammed offer as reassurance that that which he speaks is in fact final, and not to be "substituted" or retracted by god at a latter date.

and, if god "knows best" what he reveals, and if this perforce is not a matter to be decided or arbitrated by his prophet, as the prophet just reports, then who among us is to decide whether it is in fact that which is revealed first which is the truth, or that which is lately coming.

"--and god knows best what he reveals--"

and, not the prophet.  in this, the prophet stays in the dark.

it seems to my mind, that islam has a real problem here, if they maintain that the revelation of god is not consistent as a whole.  the koran is full of instances in which the revelation and scripture of the torah and the gospels is reaffirmed as the word of god.  and, that it is true.

robert jackson's words were a cautionary admonition that human knowledge, enterprise and law function in the knowledge that wisdom is limited and hence fallible, and that any and all claims to finality, including his, are provisional and subject to revision.  but, in civil and political life disputation has to give way to living, and controversy has to be put aside & finished to get on with things.  in law, says jackson, we make the best decision we are capable of, and then, get on with it: if it needs further tweaking, we'll get back to it but for right now we'll move along, in other words.

islam's claims to infallibility are precisely the opposite, and rest upon the premise that the koran is immutable because based upon the infinite knowledge and power of god, who is limitless in his knowledge.  yet, in these brief passages, islam intimates that god is not giving it to us straight.  or, that he is revealing the truth to us piece by piece, presumably as we "... are ready for it."

102.  say that the holy spirit has brought the revelation with the truth step by step from your lord, to strengthen the believers and as guidance and good news to the devout.

and, that mohammed, is most assuredly in no position to say whether any given pronouncement of god is the final word on any subject.

and, that mohammed, is most assuredly in no position to say whether any given revelation by god is the final word, on any subject.

read it yourself, and see if you agree.

who, then, among the muslims can now say otherwise based on the word of mohammed.  he is, after all, just the messenger.

john jay

 

Comments

[Chris Leavaitt]

If you read the Bahi' writings it explains why God's word changes through time.
http://bahai-library.com/?file=jones_ocean

[john jay]

chris:

i will read the link because you said it.--

but, i really don't care much about what islam, and i include bahai' in that group, says about what god's word changing over time.

i care about what i think about it.

and, i care about what the logical implications of that are, and the logical implications i have discussed in my post.

now, god may do what god may do.

that's his business.

but, islam says that mohammed is infallible because god is infallible.

and that, friend chris, is not logically compelled. as a matter of fact, it rather compels the conclusion that the prophet may be induced to error if he pronounces something which god has not let him in on, or that he may be compelled to announce a revelation that he knows is not true, if god has let him in on it.

god may be in the position to say, i reveal it a little bit as a time to lead the people to truth.

the prophet is not.

and that is the precise horn of the dilemma for islam.

john jay

[john jay]

chris:

i followed the link.

nothing there of any use, just a face page that is of no help to me in finding the explanation you say is there.

i need a more specific link.

john jay

[john jay]

chris:

a scenario, no. 1.--

god reveals his revelation to mohammed, on a subject the importance of which is eternal salvation for the believer who follows his edict, and eternal damnation for the believer who does not (hence becoming an apostate, the worst thing that can happen to a muslim. fry, baby fry.)

god reveals to mohammed that he will substitute this revelation later on, but admonishes mohammed not to reveal this. it is a little test, to see who is devout, and who will be naughty, and who will be nice.

mohammend announes the revelation. he reveals it as the word of god. truth. knowing that it will be "revised."

the believers fall by the wayside, angering god, and he decides that he will not revise his prophesy.

he does not reveal this to mohammed.

a scenario, no. 2. the same facts, except that mohammed dies, without having "revealed" that he has led the believers into error.

god still does not change his mind.

a scenario, no. 3. mohammed soldiers on, believers earning eternal damnation right and left.

god, being a forgiving sort, decides to reveal the rest of his truth, and "revises" his previous revelation.

in the mean time, many have died, and some are consigned to eternal damnation.

what to do about them?

and, to be considered, are those who have followed god's previous edicts. they die thinking that they have achieved eternal salvation, but find out that they have been misled, and that instead, they are consigned to eternal damnation as well.

well, what does god do?

what he wants. and, since he is all wise, and all mighty, what he wants is right.

remember his conversation to job. nothing has changed since that chat.

if he wants, he can make the damned saved, and the saved damned, ... , or whatever permutation of that you want.

it makes no difference.

god's will is god's will.

and, that is fine, as far as it goes.

what about mohammed.

he is not eternal, he is just a man, a messenger, and he has much to answer for.

does he tell the flocks, hey, i just relay what god tells me, i don't know what he does?

well, that is not very satisfactory to me, if i am one of or considering being one of his flocks.

i am searching for the determinate. i am not longing for the indeterminate, the "maybe" of salvation and damnation.

in these circumstances, islam does not look so infallile to me, and hardly immutable.

john jay
chief cook and bottle washer of my soul, and my will -- according to the gospels, and according to the torah. thankyouverymuch.

[John A. Fleming]

I think Sura 15 is reconciled this way. I don't have links, but this is from my recollections of reading many blog posts like this, especially Robert Spencer's at HotAir.

1. Those other earlier prophets did not recite God's word verbatim. So what is recorded is not God's word, leaving room for error and misbehavior. God was disappointed with the results from the earlier prophets, so this time he changed things to leave no doubt.

2. Mohammed is the last and final Prophet, and the Koran in Arabic is the exact transcription of God's word. God in his nightly visitations, so burned the words into Mohammed's mind, that upon waking, Mohammed spoke what God said. The only error that crept in was when the Koran was finally transcribed to paper, instead of orally memorized (people's memory fades).

So basically God said, this is it guys, submit and be saved, or be punished. You don't have any more excuses. I have told you everything you need to know.

[john jay]

john:

you gloss over the difficulty.--

and that is when mohammed isn't in on the old "switcheroo."

see http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/08/a-conversation-between-chris-and-john-on-free-will-does-god-demand-obedience-.html .

in essence, when "mo don't know", he issues falsehood. short and simple.

john jay

[john jay]

john:

and, as you may suspect, i am not very interested in "islam's reconciliation" of the issue, because i think that islam does not meet the issue.

if "mo don't know, than islam don't go."

1.)if mo is in on the scheme, he lies when he says a revelation is final, because he knows it is to be revised.

2.)if mo is not in on the scheme, and he does not know that the revelation is to be substituted, he preaches falsehood.

it is really pretty simple.

john jay