a conversation between chris and john on free will ... does god demand obedience ...

who chooses what we do?  what we believe?  can there possibly be morality without choice?

on such issues are religions, civilizations built.  and, on such issues, or ignoring such issues, do civilizations fail.

the following is an exchange between chris and i about my previous post, http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/08/islam-on-very-thin-theological-ice-the-fallibility-of-prophethood-.html .  in no place in that post is the phrase "free will" written by me, or adverted to by me.  yet, it is central to the post, and central in the following exchange between chris and me, even though you will not find it there either, though it is suggested at my signature to the last letter.

consider these words, carefully, as they are the fulcrum between civilizations, civilizations which vie for dominance in this world.  of the next, i have no direct nor personal knowledge.--

104.  if people do not believe in god's revelation, god does not guide them, and a painful torment awaits them.

sura 16, "the bee,"  verse 104, the qur'an, a translation by muhammad a.s. abdel haleem, oxford university press, 2004, u.s.a., page 173.

follows the exchange between chris and me. 

but, this is the position that i think islam finds itself on this revelation business, from another email to friends over this situation:

 

here's the problem with that.  [the issue of substitute revelations: jjj.]

1.)if god doesn't let mohammed in on the secret, mohammed "publishes" in error.  subject to latter revision, just like abraham, moses, jesus, isaiah and joseph.

2.)if god lets mohammed in on the secret, & tells him that what he is to tell the people is subject to latter revision, and big mo doesn't let the people in on it, then mohammed is aware of the fact that he lies, and that [which] he tells people is the truth, and eternal truth, patently is not.

either way, though god may be infallible, e.g., god's challenge to job when they have their little sit down after the torment to which job has been subjected, and in which he tells job, "hey, you don't know shit, and i got my reasons," ... , and the fact that he changes his mind does not lessen his infallibility, ... , the fact that what he says is subject to revision is very damaging to mohammed as the relator and messenger of infallibility.

 

john jay @ 08.31.2011

comments:

If you read the Bahi' writings it explains why God's word changes through time. 
http://bahai-library.com/?file=jones_ocean

Posted by: Chris Leavaitt | August 31, 2011 at 04:18 PM

chris:

i will read the link because you said it.--

but, i really don't care much about what islam, and i include bahai' in that group, says about what [sic] god's word changing over time.

i care about what i think about it.

and, i care about what the logical implications of that are, and the logical implications i have discussed in my post.

now, god may do what god may do.

that's his business.

but, islam says that mohammed is infallible because god is infallible.

and that, friend chris, is not logically compelled. as a matter of fact, it rather compels the conclusion that the prophet may be induced to error if he pronounces something which god has not let him in on, or that he may be compelled to announce a revelation that he knows is not true, if god has let him in on it.

god may be in the position to say, i reveal it a little bit as a time to lead the people to truth.

the prophet is not.

and that is the precise horn of the dilemma for islam.

john jay

Posted by: john jay | August 31, 2011 at 06:48 PM

chris:

i followed the link.

nothing there of any use, just a face page that is of no help to me in finding the explanation you say is there.

i need a more specific link.

john jay

Posted by: john jay | August 31, 2011 at 07:15 PM

chris:

a scenario, no. 1.--

god reveals his revelation to mohammed, on a subject the importance of which is eternal salvation for the believer who follows his edict, and eternal damnation for the believer who does not (hence becoming an apostate, the worst thing that can happen to a muslim. fry, baby fry.)

god reveals to mohammed that he will substitute this revelation later on, but admonishes mohammed not to reveal this. it is a little test, to see who is devout, and who will be naughty, and who will be nice.

mohammend announces the revelation. he reveals it as the word of god. truth. knowing that it will be "revised."

the believers fall by the wayside, angering god, and he decides that he will not revise his prophesy.

he does not reveal this to mohammed.

a scenario, no. 2. the same facts, except that mohammed dies, without having "revealed" that he has led the believers into error.

god still does not change his mind.

a scenario, no. 3. mohammed soldiers on, believers earning eternal damnation right and left.

god, being a forgiving sort, decides to reveal the rest of his truth, and "revises" his previous revelation.

in the mean time, many have died, and some are consigned to eternal damnation.

what to do about them?

and, to be considered, are those who have followed god's previous edicts. they die thinking that they have achieved eternal salvation, but find out that they have been misled, and that instead, they are consigned to eternal damnation as well.

well, what does god do?

what he wants. and, since he is all wise, and all mighty, what he wants is right.

remember his conversation to job. nothing has changed since that chat.

if he wants, he can make the damned saved, and the saved damned, ... , or whatever permutation of that you want.

it makes no difference.

god's will is god's will.

and, that is fine, as far as it goes.

what about mohammed.

he is not eternal, he is just a man, a messenger, and he has much to answer for.

does he tell the flocks, hey, i just relay what god tells me, i don't know what he does?

well, that is not very satisfactory to me, if i am one of or considering being one of his flocks.

i am searching for the determinate. i am not longing for the indeterminate, the "maybe" of salvation and damnation.

in these circumstances, islam does not look so infallile [infallible: jjj] to me, and hardly immutable.

john jay
chief cook and bottle washer of my soul, and my will -- according to the gospels, and according to the torah. thankyouverymuch.

Posted by: john jay | August 31, 2011 at 07:33 PM

 

 

 

Comments

[gioco roulette]

nice the believers fall by the wayside, angering god, and he decides that he will not revise his prophesy.